So I was only saying what the Bible says. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack.. Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. That is bad enough but when the person cant control themselves from driving when they are under the influence of alcohol makes this a lot worse in so many ways and more so when has children riding in the car with him when he is drunk. Instead theyve provided a life of ease and luxury with hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for very little effort. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. Wow! despite the nasty barbs. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. We did not do that with the lady in question who was going on and on about codependency. Put a stop to this carnage. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Dee, Deb, totally off topic but can you investigate something for us? I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. Sproul Jr.s case raises. Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. I got there at about 9:30. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Finally she allowed a member to take her to the hospital, but it was too late to save her life. I am not defending excommunication in any way. While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. Thats the Lord Himself teaching, so I dont take that lightly. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. Remember defrocking? Velour wrote: I dont know what Barbara meant specifically, but I find it hard to think well of him at all, considering what Ive read. When people are discussing or pointing this out many people begin to think they are the only seeing these problems when multiple people have these same views. Barbra said that R.C. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. EVERYBODYS DOING IT! I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Churchill might not be the best example; according to his daughter, he drank less than commonly believed. (Stay Sweet), As one woman I know who got help for being married to an alcoholic said to me, Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. From Dees original article, which seems a long time ago now: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. I do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. The hurting people reference has its place, but it is being used as an aggression against anybody who disagrees or has a different opinion and especially anybody who espouses a painful truth which others may not want to hear. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. I was on the road when it hit, Loma Prieta, things collapsing the road buckling and our house was thrashed though we did not know it until it sold a few years later during the inspection while selling it and we took a big loss on it; Foundational and chimney issues. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. He had two children in the car, and we could have been caught in a head-on collision at any time. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Im not sure how any of that stuff in and of itself would help someone to stop drinking? I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. Im glad you got out. We know each others positions. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. With as much as hes paying his attorney, and as competent as his attorney is, he could very well convince the court to drop the felony and convert it to a misdemeanor. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. Thank you, Christiane, for your wise words. Thanks for giving us that information. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. I dont think that an active substance abuser has a good idea of what they want many times, besides the next hit of [substance of choice]. @ okrapod: But we have to remember that those consequences dont have to be eternal ones but only temporary. link. Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. In my professional life I both treat and work integratively healing disease with nutritional therapies- including those who have undergone transplants due to chronic substance abuse. Its a multi-pronged approach to dealing with an alcoholic. (A stinkbomb doesnt have to be dropped with malicious intent to make a room uninhabitable). These accounts can be found in many places on the internet. I wanted to offer God as comfort but my father had had enough of the evangelical/catholic rhetoric from his mother and from our family priest and a war and so on. I think that PaJo made an excellent comment about the differences up the thread. I dont drink alcohol. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. That is, if the words of sacred Scripture For God so loved the world hold any solid meaning for them. Im sorry to hear that, but I still do not share his/her, or your, interpretation of that. It is wrong. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. That is where God met me and my family member. Relationships and social interactions matter to many people. I should add Someone (I don't know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink TO EXCESS. And let me say one more time-you are so good at this kind of thing. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Would love to see some stats on that. Murder is a crime. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? The average age of a Sproul family member is 74. I could be paving the path to hell for them. But unless you are the owner of the blog its not okay for you to tell someone else to stop responding to you. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. It does sound phony maybe its not. P.S. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! Im not incorrect. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. Instead of surgeries and treatments, all she would have to do is avoid bending her elbow to bring alcohol to her lips and she would be cured., Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. Welcome to TWW! I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. But you should know as well as anyone that you cant get anywhere with an alcoholic by forcing him. Yep, that is true. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. Velour wrote: "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? Welcome to TWW. The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. I had surgery Monday. You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. I do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could end up with somebody dead. Lea wrote: I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus) Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. any man who drives drunk with his own children in the car has got more problems than just alcoholism, yes. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Our church told that churchs search committee *everything* that had gone on.and they still hired the guy. The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. I fully believe that, if hes agreeable to treatment, that down the road that he should be willing to make both private amends to the people he harmed and public amends at churches where he caused harm. This was a wake up call. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. He was 78. Remember Ashley Madison? At some deep emotional level if I hear self medicating one more time used to minimize reasons, effects or societal responsibilities of alcohol abuseArrrgghh. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. However, Lisa (Sproul?) © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. [email protected]. Velour wrote: This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. That night, he was literally set free 30 years later, I still communicate with him he is not the alcoholic he feared he would become. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. Its almost midnight over here, so time to hit the sack. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. This is precisely where most churches will fall flat on their faces with alkies. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Edit your search or learn more. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. Even today, that daughter, who is now in her mid-thirties, is still living that life. We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. (BTW, I agree with her.). I think that would apply even to alcoholics or people with other sorts of problems. The Bible says that Christ Jesus went about healing all who were oppressed of the devil. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. As the Apostle Paul instructs us, these instructions are not grievous; they provide strength, nourishment to the establishment of the believer within the body of Christ. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. You get police involved if he is driving under the influence. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. With respect, you still didn't quote this correctly. codependency). In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? The book by the lady who is an expert on Verbal Abuse, for instance, has a chapter near the end of her book where she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. where have we seen that before? If they leave church, it would most likely be because no one put him out and continued to let his family suffer harm. But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. Intriguing. The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. So I am left with confusion. We will all be praying for you. Yes, the pain is awful. However its ten times harder hearing the discouragement in others voices. That is a very condescending response, Velour. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. It was as a college freshman that R.C. I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Even in his recent Ashley Madison scandal his punishment of being suspended from Ligonier Ministries turned out to be a reward. Its a form of blackmail. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Even Sproul Jr says so. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. I'm astonished he hasn't killed someone already.". So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. Ive been a ligonier for years . I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). Good point, Jeff. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. I have been following RCs teaching for some time. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. The point being, that when someone is in a position of authority over others, even adult to adult, and they use that authority to take advantage of another person (in this case, a policeman husband and his non-law enforcement wife), that is a super predator. Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. I told him I had not been praying specifically for him (I hadnt even been thinking of him at all) but that I had been praying in general for the conversion of souls. Improper judgement is known to be observed during alcohol impairment. Am very familiar with alcoholism, drug abuse. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. I had a normal meal and he had no food, but many drinks and remained at the restaurant (drinking) after I left. Wine is praised as a gift in scripture. First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. They are not consigned to their pasts. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. And that she suffered injuries, too. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. Can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit you meant by this part, people dont have to reinvent wheel... In one hand recovering alcoholics, but i have been forever impacted this. Are supposed to deal with people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit with... If Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but denying its power am shocked that they have any at... Of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a reward part advocating for up thread your life is better this. The words of sacred Scripture for God so loved the world hold any solid meaning for them different... 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