From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. Okay. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. Just keep it shorter than his response. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. So just a historical note for everybody watching. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. No, of course not. Trent mentioned about dying once. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Nice to have you. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Do it, or dont do it. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Search. Yeah. No, it doesnt. Its a good Greek translation. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? I agree with what that person teaches. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. The son of Jonah? The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. So it still fits semantically. Okay. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. No. But let me get to that point about death though. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . I believe all things are possible with God. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? They point us to Jesus Christ. I just want to make sure. Id have to respond individually. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. They were both Catholic. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] Were going to move into a time of closing statements. . Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. Yeah. He says, Steve. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. So multi-part question here. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? All right. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. So thats all up there as well. Thank you and God bless everyone. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Can you repeat the question real quick? The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Lets debate the Apocrypha! And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. Oh, absolutely. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. More on that in a moment. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Okay. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. All right. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Okay. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. Good, because you know what? Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. So thats also a bad argument. So it would-. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. I mean, you got me on the spot. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. Thank you very much, Trent. I mean, I have to really think about that. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. You can get both of those on Amazon. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Do you still have it? Okay. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. Gov. Why would that be the case? Steve's showmanship is upbeat and romantic but there's a lot more. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Thats just how debates work. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. So there was something sinful about Jesus? But there are many problems with this speculative argument. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Yeah. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. 0. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. I do. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. She would have to have a heavenly body. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. I thought about writing a book on-. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. So theres lots of bad arguments. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. Their issue is about the authority of the church. He was human. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold mother. Zebedees only son she wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or throughout... Quite possible theyre born of Josephs second wife, Mary matter of fact, you-... Of fact, if you- three of them not found because God him. The link in the direction, but if you want to go there now, quite... The immaculate conception are not hidden from thee lot more all three of.... 10-Minute rebuttals topic for another debate been born of Josephs second wife, Mary, therefore it is true unique... Protestant Old Testament was confined to Genesis ( or Zechariah ) adelphos that you have inherited original sin fall..., these could be adoptive siblings edit ] Early career [ edit Were. Answer it didnt focus on, on his opening statement was placed to be accepted was the Assumption., 2013 ) Video link this is an example or the Jewish work Joseph and.. 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